Persued ‘live-service’ games, using game engines that don’t fit, constantly shifting direction of games in development, focusing on a generic streamlined cinematic experience then telling a good, character-driven story with impactful and controversial choices, use Denuvo, stop releasing modding tools, …
If an independent studio does this stuff… Then they should look for better managers.
The first games that felt off to me where DA2 and ME3, but I played through them, they were still enjoyable. DA:I was bland and boring, so I dropped it, after that I didn’t see a return to the studio that I remembered.
I do hope that was a deliberate jab at Bungie. Because that’s exactly what Bungie did when they were independent and the reason they got bought out by Sony was because they were spiraling into their demise. Even now I think if Bungie goes under the blame lies with Bungie and not Sony. With that in mind I think it would be illogical to see two different studios go down the same path and then blame one studio but excuse the other studio.
Ah, they edited their comment as I was writing up mine. What they wrote before was exactly what Bungie did when they were independent. And if they did exactly the same things why would be assume EA killed Bioware but Bungie get them in their dire state on their own? Even with what the other person now changed the question stays the same. Why should we assume EA made them do those things instead of considering the possibility that they chose to do those things on their own? We have an example of a company making those same decisions all on their own and I think the relationship between EA and Bioware (especially when compared to some other studios like Visceral) EA did put some trust and autonomy into Bioware. I just don’t see how it’s inconceivable that Bioware could make those bad decisions on their own.
My point is that if Bioware did that when independent, they where to blame. But they weren’t independent when they did that.
Your point is that Bungie did that, when independent… So? Are people not blaming Bungie for doing live-services? If they don’t then they should! And if they do, then I don’t see the inconsistency.
From my POV, no games of Bungie had any interest. I guess Halo found some appeal to some, but this whole Destiny stuff… Maybe it was successful because of the novelty at that time. But I had no interest it that…
Okay, so without being what would Bioware have to do for you to blame Bioware for being shut down?
Now I have trouble parsing your question.
Didn’t I just answer that?
If BioWare would be independent, or maybe under a hypothetical ‘good guy EA’, and produced bad, bland, uninspired games, or dig themselves into one massive, feature-creep game, which eats all their money, but never releases, then I would blame them. So, if their management sucks. BioWare had enough money to find and hire good designers, writers, artists and programmers.
If they suddenly start creating niche games, without broad appeal, that would be fine to, in my book.
Trying desperately to appeal to a broad demographic, instead of playing to their strength, and their established fanbase, is what makes bland games.
Under EA what would Bioware have to do for you to say “yeah, Bioware is at fault here”? Because my argument is that EA gave Bioware all the chances to succeed and despite getting all the chances they still couldn’t succeed.
And I never said EA is the good guy here. EA is not the good guy. But being an asshole company doesn’t instantly mean you’re to blame for everything.
Your argument isn’t an argument, it is an assertion without any evidence, or even clear logical path.
Were you there in the talks between BioWare people and EA?
Do you know what EA ask directly or indirectly through implication BioWare to do?
How they should or shouldn’t design their games?
What they should integrate or not and what to focus on?
What they should implement?
What kind of stories BioWare is allowed to write?
And the employees are treated?
If they where given creative freedom, a good compensation?
I don’t know any of these things. My argument comes more down on the proverb “The fish stinks from its head.” And the observation that BioWare produced good games before ME3 and DA2. Then something must have happened, notable game designers left the company, and they produced bland games.
It could have been some BioWare manager that messed stuff up. But why didn’t EA replace them, or why were they even placed into that position in the first place? I don’t know… All I know is that someone at the top could have prevented it, if they wanted to. And at the top was EA people.
Okay, so if any proof or evidence came out that proves that the BioWare leadership or employees themselves did something bad or self destructive…
Whatever it is, without the direction of EA, then they take the blame for that. You haven’t provided me any such evidence yet. Meanwhile, I’m sticking with what is known, and my conviction than any competent leadership could have prevented it, because it wasn’t a natural disaster that happened here.
I’m sure that EA managers are payed enough so that they can take the blame, I will not subject the developers, that just lost they employment, to that. That seems like victim blaming.
Persued ‘live-service’ games, using game engines that don’t fit, constantly shifting direction of games in development, focusing on a generic streamlined cinematic experience then telling a good, character-driven story with impactful and controversial choices, use Denuvo, stop releasing modding tools, …
If an independent studio does this stuff… Then they should look for better managers.
The first games that felt off to me where DA2 and ME3, but I played through them, they were still enjoyable. DA:I was bland and boring, so I dropped it, after that I didn’t see a return to the studio that I remembered.
I do hope that was a deliberate jab at Bungie. Because that’s exactly what Bungie did when they were independent and the reason they got bought out by Sony was because they were spiraling into their demise. Even now I think if Bungie goes under the blame lies with Bungie and not Sony. With that in mind I think it would be illogical to see two different studios go down the same path and then blame one studio but excuse the other studio.
I’m assuming it was a deliberate jab at how Bioware have been handled because that’s exactly what they did
Ah, they edited their comment as I was writing up mine. What they wrote before was exactly what Bungie did when they were independent. And if they did exactly the same things why would be assume EA killed Bioware but Bungie get them in their dire state on their own? Even with what the other person now changed the question stays the same. Why should we assume EA made them do those things instead of considering the possibility that they chose to do those things on their own? We have an example of a company making those same decisions all on their own and I think the relationship between EA and Bioware (especially when compared to some other studios like Visceral) EA did put some trust and autonomy into Bioware. I just don’t see how it’s inconceivable that Bioware could make those bad decisions on their own.
I don’t get your point…
My point is that if Bioware did that when independent, they where to blame. But they weren’t independent when they did that.
Your point is that Bungie did that, when independent… So? Are people not blaming Bungie for doing live-services? If they don’t then they should! And if they do, then I don’t see the inconsistency.
From my POV, no games of Bungie had any interest. I guess Halo found some appeal to some, but this whole Destiny stuff… Maybe it was successful because of the novelty at that time. But I had no interest it that…
Okay, so without being what would Bioware have to do for you to blame Bioware for being shut down?
Now I have trouble parsing your question.
Didn’t I just answer that?
If BioWare would be independent, or maybe under a hypothetical ‘good guy EA’, and produced bad, bland, uninspired games, or dig themselves into one massive, feature-creep game, which eats all their money, but never releases, then I would blame them. So, if their management sucks. BioWare had enough money to find and hire good designers, writers, artists and programmers. If they suddenly start creating niche games, without broad appeal, that would be fine to, in my book.
Trying desperately to appeal to a broad demographic, instead of playing to their strength, and their established fanbase, is what makes bland games.
Under EA what would Bioware have to do for you to say “yeah, Bioware is at fault here”? Because my argument is that EA gave Bioware all the chances to succeed and despite getting all the chances they still couldn’t succeed.
And I never said EA is the good guy here. EA is not the good guy. But being an asshole company doesn’t instantly mean you’re to blame for everything.
Your argument isn’t an argument, it is an assertion without any evidence, or even clear logical path.
Were you there in the talks between BioWare people and EA? Do you know what EA ask directly or indirectly through implication BioWare to do? How they should or shouldn’t design their games? What they should integrate or not and what to focus on? What they should implement? What kind of stories BioWare is allowed to write? And the employees are treated? If they where given creative freedom, a good compensation?
I don’t know any of these things. My argument comes more down on the proverb “The fish stinks from its head.” And the observation that BioWare produced good games before ME3 and DA2. Then something must have happened, notable game designers left the company, and they produced bland games.
It could have been some BioWare manager that messed stuff up. But why didn’t EA replace them, or why were they even placed into that position in the first place? I don’t know… All I know is that someone at the top could have prevented it, if they wanted to. And at the top was EA people.
How about you answer the question
Okay, so if any proof or evidence came out that proves that the BioWare leadership or employees themselves did something bad or self destructive…
Whatever it is, without the direction of EA, then they take the blame for that. You haven’t provided me any such evidence yet. Meanwhile, I’m sticking with what is known, and my conviction than any competent leadership could have prevented it, because it wasn’t a natural disaster that happened here.
I’m sure that EA managers are payed enough so that they can take the blame, I will not subject the developers, that just lost they employment, to that. That seems like victim blaming.